If so, head to Cainhurst to get the Chikage and start levelling Bloodtinge. 5% boost. 25%. 36. Arcane: 9 (You could increase to 15 for Beast Roar hunter's tool or to 18 for Black Sky Eye) After that, get Lost Chikage (found in chalice dungeon). GT: Sithron978. " No doubt that your gems are good (tho the typical setup would be one heavy abyssal two temperings or two/one depending on the weapon), but when I see your screenshot you've ended up sacrificing all your additional bloodtinge damage with the current gem setup. 5 or 32. One discovery rune is enough since. Best Buy. Most people go two 27% physical attack up gems, and one 31. There is no rival for it. It's a powerful pistol that uses two Quicksilver Bullets for one shot to increase overall. The Bowblade is an interesting one because its two modes are so different from one another. 2%) Most people run Chikage as a pure bloodtinge weapon for this reason, that. Nah it only benefits in weapons that have poor scaling. Sharp Blood Gemstone Effect: SKL scaling UP +flat: 1-10:Hello hunters!I've created and edited a new dungeon for 31,5 tinge oos farming. Greetings fellow prospectors! I have decided to undertake the tedious task of farming for OoS bloodtinge gems to make my big meaty bonk stick even bloodier! I thought it might be a fun thing to update you all on the (lack of) progress I make in the upcoming days. 2%, which is plenty good, though not as good as bloodtinge gems. 14 skill, 15 arc for hunters bone and. 5% gem, the Repeating Pistol would gain 2. Or instead use two ATK boosting gems and one blood boosting gem. " "Blood gems are kneaded into weapons using workshop tools, but only when of matching shape. The only known differences being the Gem Imprints and the locations in which they are found. The Chikage would now be very powerful, thanks to the truckloads of DPS. They drop from mob enemies in the base game, and each chalice. Gem farming: Farming the brain monsters thats at Nightmare of Mensis 2nd bonfire grants 14 rating gems that gives 18% - 19. The lost version with (3) 31. 3% bloodtinge gem, if you only intend to use charge attacks. Don't even touch your bloodtinge stat till after you get the Chikage. 5% blood attack up and 2 x 27. 5% Cursed Damp Bloodtinge Gems (including Off-Shapes) Note: I have done 3000+ runs of the infamous y592byza & naapatbx dungeons. A little note while we’re talking about Bloodtinge gems: generally gems have the words “Blood Gemstone” or “Blood Gem” in them (Tempering Blood Gemstone, for example). Also if you want the top tier gems for them you'll have to dive into the F/R/C depth 5 dungeons as well. Very rare gem type, dropped by Winter Lanterns. With a 31. 15. Generally speaking, these gems are great for a hunter who wants to squeeze a bit more damage out of their favorite weapon. Amazon. OP cursed gems make any build irrelevant really. Lost chikage has a circle gem slot. Top Tier Gem Farming Codes. Elemental 5pwujscd (Triangle) Yup, the same glyph as for Physical, etc. Bloodtinge gems. 3%; FOR FIRE AND BOLT ATK UP+% AND RAPID POISON GEMS WITH SECONDARY AND WANING PHYSICAL GEMS . And their drop rate is incredibly low, at about 0. The same principle applies if the gem's secondary is phys up at full HP instead, though that would apply to all attacks, but of course only at full HP. Look up info about False depth dungeons and Bloodtinge glyphs. or weeks 🤣. I have a guaranteed way to get a perfect set of off shape max bloodtinge gems. The effects of gems basically run off of a nuanced and somewhat-intutitive balanced-total. properties. 9%. Blood gems are kneaded into weapons using workshop tools, but only when of matching shape. If your character is male, put the bag head for water sound effects and lore! I went with ‘Scarlet Phantasm’ for a name - shallow, but looks cool. These gems. Fast but tough boss arena. 2% the highest bloodtinge is 33. See All. Not exactly anywhere,if is referring to bloodtinge Oos then this gems is tied to the drop pool of the watcher. They won't be quite as powerful, but will do. As such, if you don't have much time on your hands or don't enjoying farming, I would highly recommend just going for the standard physical 27. 7% Blood ATK. The next best option is 3 27. OOS means Out-Of-Shape, for any gem you get there is a low chance (2%) that the gem will be of a random shape instead of the usual shape. And their drop rate is incredibly low, at about 0. This guide covers the loc. 4%. That means native triangle shape. You don’t have to specifically get Bloodtinge gems. At 50 bloodtinge you get 356. Please delete following pages: Cursed Adept Damp Blood Gem, Cursed Bolt Damp Blood Gem, Fire Damp Blood Gem, Murky Damp Blood Gem, Bolt. Blood Gems require the Blood Gem Workshop Tool and can be slotted and unslotted at the Workshop. Go deep into the chalice dungeons. At ~50 or so Bloodtinge, the gems from the Gun Watcher outdamage. 5 odd bloodtinge its the best option for blunderbuss, 29. It considers the rating of the gem, the potential severity of that gem’s curses, the secondary effects available, and the potency of. Pure Bloodtinge builds can choose to simply meet the minimum 15 Skill to equip the bow and use out-of-shape Bloodtinge gems for two of the Lost Bowblade's slots to make the bow exceptionally powerful, although this does render it more of a side-arm weapon. Blood gems are especially rare blood stones that grow on coldblood. ALWAYS level vitality first boys. 2% phys. If you want the absolute maximum damage, the Lost version with a bloodtinge gem is the way to go - the absolute peak for the Chikage's damage lies in the Lost Chikage's blood. Out-of-shape gems or Oos gems are a very rare % when usually say an enemy gives radial shaped gems but might drop a triangular one instead. Hunter Blunderbuss and Ludwig´s Rifle are two firearms that benefit the most from flat bloodtinge secondary stat due to their low bloodtinge scaling justified by spread. With that being said, they are extremely time-consuming to farm gems for, taking on average 80 hours to complete the build so be prepared. Effect: Random negative effect. So maybe R1 - L1 - R1 - L1 or L1 - R1 - R1 - L1. That means native triangle shape. Abyssal blood gems are eldritch gems with a dim radiance that only grow deep inside the labyrinth. 54. With a 31. OP has farmed for hours and has only gotten a useless warm gem. Damp Bloodtinge Gem Effect: Blood ATK UP +% Effect: Blood ATK UP +flat: cowering Ritual Master: Cursed Damp Bloodtinge Gem Effect: Blood ATK UP +%. It has excellent damage, speed, range, and it uses wide swings that are excellent for catching fast and dodging. First, let’s look at the Chikage. 2% gems (one radial, one triangle) and one 31% (I think that was the max) bloodtinge (circle) gem. Ok people. Can you answer some questions. ago. I have searched on the web and have not found much. If you want a pure bloodtinge chikage, then you’ll need all bloodtinge gems. x5 Purple Aura Nightmare Apostle. You can also consume some special items to gain unique Blood Gems. Then do charged shots and deal 1k+ per shot. 5% bloodtinge gems which is higher than what you can get out of a physical triangle. Glyph with a Shotgun Watcher before the first lamp: y592byza (Isz Root. Bloodsucking Beast; Blood-starved Beast; Shotgun Watcher . Droplet. 2% Tempering Gems which are much easier to get but result in a damage loss of 12. Chikage (千景 Chikage lit. 5% i think farming this build is easier than farming radial bloodtinge gem. Cursed Tempering Damp Blood Gem is a Droplet Blood Gem in Bloodborne. Happy Hoonting. Here is a spread sheet with info on player created dungeons with loot in them:. They can be slotted in to Blood Gem Imprint slots in weapons to add an effect to a weapon. i farm cursed tempering abyssal gem rating 20 Radial 1 : phys up 24. 5. Bloodtinge does scale with gun damage and a couple weapons, but you can parry effectively with base score, you don't really need to be going for damage with guns. The next best farm is 3x31. Anyone have a good glyph for farming a 31. The highest damage per second is probably: Whirligig L2 with perfect Phys ATK% + flat Phys with full beasthood and one of the paper buffs. TheJackyl 7 years ago #10. It's still up to chance, so if you really want one, you just kind of have to keep farming and hope RNG blesses you soon enough. Thanks for the input. The glyph gvpuuz84 has a 3% chance of dropping an out-of-shape (more if you equip multiple Eye runes and Milkweed). At 30 bloodtinge, a +10 Chikage with no gems does 299 blood damage. This will be the easiest way to get maximum effectiveness out of your weapon. 50 bloodtinge, 15 skill, then get gems that have phy% bonus and charge up% on the same gem. Bloodtinge gems top out at 31. Actually, I think about using the Burial Blade again, the Chikage was just a test. Skill+bloodtinge. Farming for radial bloodtinge gems will take a lot of patience and commitment, but if you want to be truly OP that’s the only way. Return to the Lantern and move forwards into a large room. From there, you can start farming for gems and get your Bloodtinge to 50 before you step foot into the DLC. 5% bloodtinge attack up gem. If memory serves the strongest tempering gems fall in at 27. 5% blood gems, haha. As is evident, the base blade will be stronger, but the blood blade will be weaker than the first set-up. _Sfg-Coba_ • 1 yr. Odd Bloodtinge Blood Gemstone (Waning) Usage. Non-Circle Bloodtinge Gems are OOS, so farming them will take quite some time if you want 3x31. Find out everything you need to know about the game. This will be the easiest way to get maximum effectiveness out of your weapon. 5% Blood ATK gems which drop from Shotgun Watchers in FRC Root dungeons. The other one was from the watchers boss. My build has no bloodtinge, but executioners gloves spam seems to take Amy down with ease for me most of the time. Updated: 20 May 2015 17:25. 22 votes, 10 comments. Now, imagine offshape farming for a gem that has by default 0. You can find warm (f) and tinge gems 29,3 - 30,4 and 31,5. tad wrong winter lanterns can also drop non-cursed versions of bloodgems. That's why only some weapons can use them. Chest in Healing Church Workshop tower. Horror. As for Arcane you could use any weapon that has no arcane or bloodtinge scaling aswell. Out-of-shape. 3%) f3cz4awe: 1st layer pre-lamp: circle: Merciless Watcher guarding coffin : Circular Cursed Damp Bloodtinge Gem (30. Bloodtinge is considered physical attack. Scaling blood gems are great for: Providing variety to builds Stats are bloodtinge scaling up 23. true. The Chikage is the only bloodtinge weapon included in the main game and is my personal favorite weapon. true. You should get your hands on the "lost chikage" it has a circle gem slot at the end which allows you to put bloodtinge attk%+ These gems drop from the bloodsuckers( the spider looking things in chalice dungeons) they only spawn when you kill an enemy with a visceral in a room and come back to it later and the bloodsucker will be. I put a damp bloodtinge gem in mine to help get the most out of it's buff and the tear blood gem which restores health at a constant rate. Equip you. Best level for this build is among 120-150. Ok people. If you want the absolute maximum damage, the Lost version with a bloodtinge gem is the way to go - the absolute peak for the Chikage's damage lies in the Lost Chikage's blood. 19 Apr 2020 09:02OOS gems drop less than 2% of the time, a bad curse effect can make them useless, and enemies can also drop Bloodtinge Scaling gems instead of Bloodtinge ATK up gems. Skill+bloodtinge+the existence of the vile bloods and their badass sword that is op as fuccc. Personally, I don't think there's ever a time to half and half tempering and bloodtinge gems. Add a Comment. Or vice versa. it works great on both of them. Equip your eye runes and milkweed rune and farm the watcher mob with gun. Bloodtinge weapons also cannot be buffed by anything, so keep that in mind. Since no one corrected it, I assume people had success with that glyph. If you can't go dungeon diving yet, use the best physical gems you can get your hands on since those will raise blood damage for right hand weapons. " "Most triangular blood. Same as un7jx5px. The weapon will be far to weak to try to convert it to a bloodtinge weapon. 2% tempering gems, 30 bloodtinge gets you 616, 50 gets you 732. The three blood focused weapons (chikage, bloodletter, bowblade) all have S Bloodtinge scaling, they deal pure blood damage in their transformed state (meaning they only rely on Bloodtinge while transformed), and blood damage % gems go higher than standard. You have to do some seriously un-fun hardcore chalice grinding to get anything worthwhile, I think. Reply replyGems & Farming. 0096% droprate in Lower Loran Reply YGears. Anyway, I'd personally suggest getting the PS+ free 1. 2% cursed tempering damp radial gems late in the game use the glyph: pwmf22gu For up to blood ATK UP+30. Assuming absolutely top-tier gems that allows the Lost Chikage to be slightly stronger in terms of blood damage. Other possible gems its adept, brainsucker and any abyssal from Bepis! Need only to find needed pairs of dungeons. KrazeyMatt 8 years ago #1. Skill/Bloodtinge build advices. "Description goes here. 6% So you're looking at a difference of up to 16. A +10 Repeating Pistol with a 31% gem and buffed with Bonemarrow Ash can easily go over 2000 per shot. If you want to do an early game bloodtinge build get your lost chickage via false depth and just aim for whatever gems you get from regular chalice dungeons and main game until at least after you beat Rom. 5% circle gem, farm the watcher in the first layer of gvpuuz84. For high-end BT builds you should be using bloodtinge gems which only boost blood attack, so you are never using untricked mode attacks. Bloodtinge scaling (Warm) and Skill scaling (Sharp) gems have no use whatsoever. The total chance a Bloodtinge gem drops with the stats you want can be described as following: Desired gem chance = [chance a gem drops from an enemy] x [chance of the gem being Bloodtinge] x [chance of the gem being the right shape] x [chance the gem has the right rating] x [chance the gem has the right curse] Once you have the average farm. Also blood damage gems don't convert your weapon the way elemental/arcane gems do, it only increases already-existing blood damage. 5% gem, the Repeating Pistol would gain 2. ago. Next to layer 1 lantern. Tempering Gems only affect Normal Mode, and blood damage increases, like the Bloodtinge effect, only affect transformed mode. Cursed Cold Abyssal Blood Gem. grow on coldblood. And for the Hunter Pistol, I switch between this and bloodtinge Blood Gem. 3% Blood ATK UP (rating 16). 27 votes, 25 comments. The glyphs mentioned by the other person are the best to farm these but I wanted to let you know that it's a super long farm. then R1, L1, R1, R1, L1 later adding R1 inputs in the middle as. 100 runs of famous Bloodtinge Blood Gem farming spot - check out the results and what you can get from this farming location. Glyphs: xc284ugx --> 21% phys radial f3cz4awe --> 30% bloodtinge circleI've been farming for around 10 hours a day for the last 6 days, and have not seen a single usable 31. I would look through The Vileblood Handbook here. - Farm Gargoyles in Depth 5 Cursed Ihyll Chalice. 5% blood attack gems (tempering is 27. Adept (blunt) effects will increase the damage of the normal mode, while and Bloodtinge gems increase the damage of the transformed mode; you'll get a larger bonus using gems like these, since their effects are more specifically. Chalice glyph: dubxay4m. The bow works well with hyper mode though since you'll be at a distance. Updated: 20 May 2015 17:25. The Cursed Warm Damp Blood Gem accomplishes the same, with this Circular gem allowing Bloodtinge builds to unleash a wave of destruction upon their opponents with ease! 1 Cursed Cold Abyssal Blood. Mine has 2x 27. 2% physical you'd usually put in there. Practice a little. Bloodletter DescriptionOther possible gems its adept, brainsucker and any abyssal from Bepis! Need only to find needed pairs of dungeons. Hopeless 7 years ago #2. I get about 760 AR, and it's not exactly slow. Press J to jump to the feed. Embark on a transcendant journey of crystals, gems, jewelry and magic. Bloodtinge gems are by far the worst farms in the game. Also a high Bloodtinge is needed to boost the weapon's effectiveness, otherwise the transformation is useless. Bloodtinge gems are naturally circular in shape, so getting a Raidal means it's an Out of Shape drop, and all will drop at the same rate, no matter the Dungeon. 99 used More Topics from this Board. 4 and attack down 7. I got a few Warm gems from him that are rating 17 so I assume the Bloodtinge gems could go a bit higher. Bloodtinge Gemstone. To be noted that, unless your Bloodtinge is very high, the difference between oos Bloodtinge gems and best Physical gems is laughable and possibly not worth. For the Threaded Cane, as others have noted, you want the normal version, so no need to go chalice diving. Furthermore, you can use the new gate clip glitch to get the Chikage at nearly the start of the game, which is really nice for a pure Bloodtinge build. Usefulness of these gems - I believe 38. Blood gems are a special item that can be imprinted on an upgraded weapon in order to boost its damage, its scaling, or its effects further. 2% Boss Watcher tempering is almost as good as the BSB gem and also improves your other attacks. All damage up 21. 3 blood gem and the 31. But if you want dungeons with a reasonable chance to get any gem, these are the ones for you!Suppose there is a case to be made for that, but my end point is Rating 19 - 32. Starting a Playthrough & Progression. Tempering gems like the 23% Cursed ones you can get from the DLC Winter Lanterns are perfectly fine to boost blood attack. 5%). 6 are the best ones, obviously 32 is best but it’s also 1/404, while you can get super lucky with the others, but you really can with both. You can pretty much just casually shoot normal enemies at 50 bloodtinge with a +10 Evelyn and a 31% bloodtinge gem. Cursed Damp Bloodtinge Gemstone is a Triangular Blood Gem in Bloodborne. When farming Out of Shape gems, it's best to throw on your favorite Enya album, take some. These two droplets will give you 47. I've been farming for 31. Do you want to one shot people like me? Want your 50 Bloodtinge gun to do more damage? Well look no further, today, we have an incredible find, perhaps the s. Thanks for all that information. Bloodtinge build with Chikage. Soloing the hunter at the end of the Eileen quest in the cathedral and firing the same thing he has (repeater) with like 25 bloodtinge and at least a +6 on my weapon with a +16% bloodtinge gem I still barely cracked 100 hp damage to him while he fucking wrecks me every time it hits. 8% + atk vs kin down Radial 2 : pays up 24. Tomb of Oedon: Found on a corpse. Arcane Blood Gems - Increase arcane attack. It is wielded by Brador and is part of The Old Hunters DLC. Was hoping there was a nice fat 30 damage or something somewhere, but if my lord Arch-Arcanist. Attack values barely differ, by 1-2 in most cases and even at certain bloodtinge stats both gems get exactly the same attack values. Got to NG+++. 2%s, and it wouldn't hurt to have 22. I. Divine Gem is a retail and wholesaler of rocks, crystals and gemstones. Droplet gems are special gems that adapt to various weapons and shapes, naturally making them highly priced among hunters. The only known differences being the Gem Imprints and the locations in which they are found. Also, I completed the whole. 31. Nourishing Abyssal Blood Gem is a Waning type Blood Gem in Bloodborne. Nourishing Gems are better because they benefit both modes. Upper Cathedral Ward - low-level bloodtinge gem on the first floor in a chest Forsaken Castle Cainhurst - bloodtinge gem that adds something like 20ish flat Nightmare of Mensis - 21. A blood gem that fortifies weapons and adds various. Watch out for the two floor traps that spawn several reddish enemies and kill any enemies lying around before looting the Ritual Blood x2 and Quicksilver Bullets x2. Some of the best gems I have gotten, each prefix seems exclusive to each particular boss (as they also drop often rating 19 gems of the same type): Cursed Bolt Abyssal Blood Gem (Waning from Loran Darkbeast Layer 4) - Bolt ATK UP +24. Just grab a fire or bolt gem and slap it to your weapon and it’ll convert it to Arcane. So bloodtinge gems usually come in circular, but when OOS they could be radial or waning or triangle. 5% more damage, meaning it's new damage would be 1200-1201 damage while Bone Marrow Ashed. This means the Cannon gains only 14 more. I tried to farm the gun Watcher there a couple of times and to my surprise he actually drops cursed circle gems that seem to go up to 29. Anonymous. "A blood gem that fortifies weapons and adds various properties. 3% Blood ATK UP (rating 16). 2-Bloodtinge gem style: This is probably the least encountered type it consists of having to farm Out-Of-Shape bloodtinge gems for weapons with high bloodtinge dmg (chikage, simon bowblade, bloodletter). Random gun type gem x1 [16%] Damp Bloodtinge Gem (4) Circle : 17 : Blood ATK UP +15. A blood gem that fortifies weapons and adds various properties. Trying to get bloodtinge radials and I've only gotten 1 gem from i don't know how long of farming. Physical-damage gems boost both the normal and trick (blood) attacks. Blood Gems are in-game items that can be embedded into your weapons to make them more powerful. Sanan_The_Man • 6 yr. f3cz4awe Has 31. Did not come around to properly linking it all yet, maybe you can do it? Bloodborne wiki: Weapons, Armor, Classes, Items, Locations, Secrets, Gestures, Walkthroughs, and Maps. The chance for any out of shape to drop is 1%, according to my own testing so far. 3. 3x31. Bloodtinge Gemstone. Dunno if that one's still open. Dropped by Bloodsucking Beast in Cainhurst courtyard and Chalice Dungeons. Boho Tribe Victoria, Victoria, British Columbia. Most triangular blood gems have effects that provide attribute bonuses and extra effects. If you want 2 31. For my 25/str 60/arcane I get the tempering radial arcane gems from brainsuckers, where arcane secondary effect is pretty much guaranteed, and cold triangle gems from elder. Complete this chalice to layer 2 to obtain the Pthumeru Root from the Watchers boss on layer 2. Start a new character on cruel fate. 3% in two-handed mode. Blood Gems require the Blood Gem Workshop Tool and can be slotted and unslotted at the Workshop. █ Blood Rock x1 : The bottom of the tower the Brain of Mensis is hanging in, reached by dropping carefully down from Middle Bridge. Farming for out of shapes bloodtinge gems isn't too bad. Kill the two enemies in here before grabbing the Odd Damp Bloodtinge Gem in the chest. Bloodtinge and Warm gems are set to only drop in circular shape, and they make up the entire drop table of just four (4) enemies in the game. It depends on your build, Ludwig Holy Blade has the highest AR for a single attack in the game, If you're a Bloodtinge build you'd want to use the Bloodletter in tricked form exclusively, in this case you'll need to farm the OoS Bloodletting gems (this setup will provide the maximum AR for this weapon), if you want to use both forms and your stats. 1% drop rate. The Chikage and Bloodletter have two melee modes, so it's easy for a player maining one to use them in transformed mode only on a Bloodtinge build, and to use the Lost versions to get a circle slot and use Bloodtinge gems to maximize their damage. 25% chance of dropping bloodtinge gems. At ~50 or so Bloodtinge, the gems from the Gun Watcher outdamage. 2249ibye and gvpuuz84 are 2 good farms -Bloodtinge: 50 (+36) - (Recommended not to increase further as the damage increase isn't that significant). 6% Bloodtinge Gems instead. Stake driver charged R2 with perfect Phys ATK gems and you fully built up beasthood beforehand. 00015%, and 0. Also, I completed the whole dungeon to see what else we have there. Scaling blood gems are great for: Providing variety. Blood gems are especially rare blood stones that grow on coldblood. Just run a skill build with a cleaver or spear until you can get chikage. Tempering Gems only affect Normal Mode, and blood damage increases, like the Bloodtinge effect, only affect transformed mode. This is a bullet point guide that allows to get you a fully operational op bloodtinge character. Amygdala in FRC Lower Loran. 25% drop rate in Slotmachine dungeons. Players farm the Fatsos endlessly until they get 2 other out of shape Bloodtinge Gems, and then the one shots commence. the Watcher gem is minuscule. Effect: Phys. 3x31. 100 runs of famous Bloodtinge Blood Gem farming spot - check out the results and what you can get from this farming location. These alternate weapons can be found in Chalice Dungeons. When transformed, the Chikage will coat itself. At the time I didn't have all 27. The Lost variant only really excels if you're willing to put in the time and effort to farm optimal Out of Shape Radial Bloodtinge gems. There are likely modified Chalice Dungeons to make the farming process easier at this point, otherwise it's a process that takes weeks and thousands of kills of a specific enemy, since you have to pray for. Can drop off-shape from certain enemies (see out-of-shape gems). 2-1. 5%). Farming The Very Best. EDIT: I found a better glyph with Bloodstarved on Layer 1 a few. These gems take both your physical stats (strength, skill and also bloodtinge though bloodtinge doesn't matter for HMS) and arcane stat into account. 500 posts, 5/22/2015. Think of it as a stepping stone. 5%, secondary effect and a curse. for the start - level up ur VIT to 30 and END to 20 (18) also. "As all "early guides" this requires glyphs therefore ps plus. This is the only Bloodtinge Build Guide you will ever need. It ceases to…Specifically, the reason why you care about having a circular slot is that if you are both (a) running a pure BLT build so you want to maximize blood damage rather than both blood and physical damage, and (b) intend to farm the very best blood gems, Bloodtinge gems can get higher maximum bonuses than Tempering gems (Tempering increase both Physical. For example in not edited Pthumeru chance to get Tinge or Warm - 0. 5%. They have also been known to drop fromthe Watcher boss in extremely rare cases, just a few times ever.